Whats the difference! On Nov. 6, 2012 the White Man sold the White Man down the river, good luck to you and your love ones in the coming years.Bye Bye Miss American Pie drove me down to the levy but the levy was dry,that was the day America died, that was the day America died.

Dan,

Remember that Illinois exempts all retirement income from taxes, whether it's a public pension or a company pension. While it seems easy to try to deal with Illinois' public pension woes, in part, by taxing retiree pensions as ordinary income, the net you cast would include anyone who worked for any private company with a pension plan.

All that will do is drive even more retirees to the Sun Belt, where income taxes are lower, or even non-existant.

There is anecdotal information saying that a lot of wealthy working people in Illinois who don't need to be in Illinois for their work (work at home types or road warriors) are moving to states with lower income taxes. Start taxing wealthy retirees with pensions, and they will join the exodus beyond those who leave Illinois because of the winters.

It's one thing to amend a tax code and make it retroactive to the start of a calendar year. But, you can't amend a tax code and make tax increases retroactive to the prior calendar year, let alone 5 or 10 years.

Jim Edgar is once again looking to raise all income taxes except on those like himself that earn a large pension income that is so large that it exceeds the average family income in a high wage community like Elmhurst. Won't the increased taxes on current wages also encourage working people to leave Illinois? Isn't this why Illinois now has fewer electoral vote than in the past because there is a shift away from states that look towards politicians that are gaming the system for there answers to states where there are leaders that actual solve problems?

Kent, what exodus from Illinois? The population of Illinois increased 4.0% from 2000 to 2009, ranking Illinois 15th nationally in population growth. Taxes lower in the Sun Belt? Alabama 5%, Arkansas 7%, Georgia 6%, Louisiana 6%, Mississippi 5%, New Mexico 4.9%, North Carolina 7%, South Carolina 7%, Arizona 4.54%. Nevadans, Texans, and Floridians do not pay state income taxes. Why? Nevada generates huge revenues from the hotel and gaming industries. Florida has the VAT (value added taxes that tourists pay for things like hotel rooms). Texas revenue comes from relatively high property taxes and a nice return on its Federal taxes. Arguably Texas is the state which provides the lowest level of services to its residents. As a region, the south is returned $1.19 for each federal tax dollar paid. The midwest receives just $0.91 per federal tax dollar, and Illinois gets just $0.78. Illinois income taxes are not high. But Kent makes a good point about taxing retirement income in Illinois - 5% is a whole lot more than 0% - certainly enough to make some folks move on to browner pastures.

Tim, I'm not sure if you're just misleading the people or you're truly ignorant of tax rates. Arizona, for example, DOESN'T have an overall rate of 4.54%. That's the marginal rate of their highest bracket. They only pay 2.59% on the first $10,000 of taxable income, and there's several other steps before you get to the top bracket.

Their effective rate is FAR lower than our excessive 5% flat rates on ALL taxable income.

So which is it Tim, are you dishonest or just ignorant?

Bob - neither. Rather than reporting all of the tax rates in great detail I kept it simple stupid so as to illustrate my point that Illinois tax rates are not high compared to the Sun Belt. I will agree that Illinois should use a progressive state income tax rate like that used in Arizona and many other states. Imagine that - Arizona more progressive than Illinois! Illinois is certainly not a tax haven, but neither are the taxes here onerous (see California).

Tim, try comparing our income tax rates with Texas. You know, the state that has NO income tax?LOL Their growth rate dwarfs ours, and without Texas we'd be in a recession in this country.

Check out the tax rates in Florida while you're at it.

Illinois is ranked 48th in business environment almost exclusively because of government corruption, entitlements, taxes, judicial corruption and mismangement.

Tim, about one person leaves Illinois every ten minutes. Over the last decade we've had about 600,000 people leave Illinois. High low income birthrates, especially in the Hispanic community, are what have been driving our population.

Perhaps more important than just the numbers of the emmigrants is the economic status of those who are leaving.

It's largely the "producers" in this state, the professionals who generate tax revenues and spend to increase economic activity.

Now every successful person I know is talking about their exit strategy from Illinois to Sun belt states primarily because of the crushing liabilities Madigan, Blago, Quinn and public employee unions have created, and they don't want to have to shoulder the burden for it.

Many of us have tried to change things to be fairer and better for everyone, but the voters of Illinois have chosen leadership to continue giving away goodies to their political buddies and campaign contributors despite the fact that it's destroying the state and people's opportunities for the future.

Sooner than later the only people left here will be farmers and government employees without a private sector business and middle class to pay for the corruption and cronyism.

Many revenue producers are giving up on Illinois. The parasitic voters and payrollers made this mess. Let them pay to fix it!

Bob - Florida and Nevada do not have state income taxes because mostly they do not need it. Both states rely heavily on the VAT levied on vacation and convention visitors. Most states including Illinois do not have that luxury. In Texas you get what you pay for, which quite frankly ain't much. The overall poverty rate in Texas is 29.5% higher than in Illinois. Child poverty is 37% higher in Texas with greater than 1 in 4 children living in poverty. Only two states have lower per capita tax outlays than Texas - Florida and Nevada. I see a pattern here. Illinois spends an average of 27% more on each resident than does Texas. If that 5% state tax is too onerous for anyone, they can move to Texas and pay 0%. Just remember that the average tax burden in Illinois at 10.2% is only 2.3% higher than Texas' average of 7.9%. Oh and don't forget to figure in that on average your wages will be 13% less in Texas than in Illinois. Also your children will be less likely to graduate from high school in Texas, and even if they do, they'll be less likely to graduate from college.

[BTW the Illinois Policy Institute report that you appear to have garnered some of your information from, has been widely disparaged. IPI is not the neutral independent source that they claim to be, but rather a conservative think tank and member of ALEC (see Koch bros. et al).]

Bob - Texas has witnessed excellent growth (2011 real GDP + 3.3%). However, it still lagged behind West Virginia (+4.5%), Oregon (+4.7%), and North Dakota (+7.6%). BTW state income tax rates in Oregon range from 5.0 to 11.0%. Clearly there is more at work here than the idea that Texas is a nice place to live and work just because they have a 0% state income tax and therefore employers and employees are rushing into the Republic. Illinois will improve when we get our house in order. Fiscal restraint, adequate revenues, and the curtailment of social programs rife with abuse are all necessary. Let's hope we get there, or eventually all of us that can vote with our feet will do so.

One last observation before I retire for the night. Those of you that read the atrocious Illinois Policy Institute report regarding why Illinois sucks and what we will need to do to make us a really cool place like Texas. The report discusses several factors explaining the fictional "mass exodus" from Illinois, including the fact that the average temperature in the south is higher than it is here in Illinois (duh). What made me laugh was the idiotic description of the temperature as a percent warmer in certain destination states, than in Illinois. Uh, maybe you need to be a scientist to get the humor (I am) - but temperatures, even as numeric as they are, cannot be expressed as percentages. In other words 20F is not 100% warmer than 10F. They also drew a correlation between union employment and where people wanted to live ie. in IPI's strangely absurd and biased world, Illinoisans are moving to Texas simply because Illinois is more unionized than Texas. You see my point? IPI chose arbitrary markers that supported its world view. They could just have easily made the claim that Illinoisans were moving to Texas because the state population there is less African-American. But that would have made them look racist and we all would have recognized the absurdity of that claim and written them off as pigs. The IPI report does not identify the author or their qualifications, nor does it include an organizational mission statement, and they do not identify funding sources.

Oregon has no sales tax. We have 5% income tax, sales tax approaching 10%, and (in Crook County) crushing property taxes compared to the value of the real estate. Sad....

So Social Security should be subject to Illinois income tax as well? It falls under the same exemption.

Many on state pensions cannot collect social security. The state pension is all that they have and for most it is a pretty small amount. The political big-wigs who collect over 100K are rare exceptions. I just wonder how they would get along on a total income of about $35,000 a year. And that may get cut when the state government, who robbed the state pension funds to buy other things in the first place, allows that fund to go bankrupt (except for themselves, I bet) and retired state workers and teachers are left with nothing.

Maybe all those who served in elective office over the last 50 years or so and were in any way complicit in diverting money from the pension funds should be required to make it up out of their own pockets. Problem solved.

That's fine with me too. Seniors get away with murder in this state. Pensions, IRAs and 401ks all need to be subject to IL income tax. The worst part is they are paying 0 IL tax when they contribute to a 401k or IRA and 0 IL tax when they withdraw from the account.

We do need to tax retirement income to help fund government services. Spending cuts are also needed, especially corporate welfare.

Deserve what? To not pay taxes on untaxed income? Are you nuts?

Colin , 35 grand is more than you would get under social security.

It's a good ole boy's club and of course,they are going to let each other off the hook to protect each other's entitlements. I bet Blago will get a pension too.

Kathy...if you want to make any real changes the first place to cut is local school district budgets. Let's go for about 30% to start. Property taxes are out of control and the schools are the primary culprits. I don't really care where they find it but $250,000 per year administrators would be a really good place to look. The state income tax is a drop in the bucket compared to what the schools waste every year,

That issue about giving driver's licenses irritated me also, and even worse were some of the excuses they used. What makes anyone think someone who has a license now that drove without one before would carry insurance. Another excuse about not giving them licenses would hurt the businesses that rely on illegals is rewarding another group who ignores the laws. While Obama buying votes with his decree about illegal aliens his other accomplishment is making a joke about immigration laws. He is not king, guess he is like Mohamed Morsy but more subtle as he does not come out and say he is above the law and our constitution.

We suburban residents are also sick of paying for Chicago's useless transit and school systems.....

Walt, just like Madigan, right?

Hey boomer great comments! I've been in Illinois for 32 years now and Jim Edgar was the best of the bunch. I am a Democrat, but I did not vote for Blago or Quinn. The Republicans need to run an electable centrist candidate, with the ability to work across the aisle and make things happen.

babyboomer , if by Edgar being our "best" governor you mean he was the only governor out of office that isn't incarcerated, you'd be right.

BTW, does anyone seriously believe that corruption in the Secretary of State's office started with George Ryan, and was "clean" under Edgar?LOL

Babyboomer hit it on the head....Edgar was the best Gov Illinois has had in decades and I for one would give anything to go back to those days. Most of you commenting here are missing Edgar's point altogether. You can keep the likes of the intellectually inept legislators like Quinn who make up cartoon characters to rally support. That’s just plain insulting to anyone who has half a brain…but I get it, isn’t it the Dems who re-installed the felon Smith and that ass JJJ? Since you’re in the majority, he has to stoop to your level of thinking. You folks ought to be ashamed of your voting record. Last week I saw a news program interview an elderly African American woman on the street about the actions of JJJ and she stated something to this effect: “he should have never run and he should have never won once he ran, the voters here are idiots.” I couldn’t agree with her more.

Illegal aliens (undocumented aliens) are not eligible to receive DHS benefits. However, an unemployed legal alien who is supported by income from one or more employed illegal aliens, could in theory receive DHS benefits. Such an individual might not be eligible for DHS benefits if all of the household income were accounted for. A legal alien could also work for cash and lie to DHS about their income in order to qualify for benefits. And of course a US citizen could play the same games. I think that it would take a national amnesty program to drive illegal aliens out of the underground economy. Only then will they pay the taxes that they should. Keep in mind though that most of these individuals because of their meager incomes, will not pay much tax. Don't look for a windfall any time soon.

Tim you are incorrect - once they have a baby they get everything free.

Formereastside, my statement is correct. However, ALL children born in the USA are by definition legal residents. And legal residents are eligible for DHS benefits.

Tim Race, that is not necessarily correct as there has not been a decision on a child born of illegal aliens, "The Supreme Court has never explicitly ruled on whether children born in the United States to illegal immigrant parents are entitled to birthright citizenship via the 14th Amendment,[6] although it has generally been assumed that they are." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law

Also consider that the responsibility regarding immigration law belongs with the Congress not the president. "Article I, section 8, clause 4 of the United States Constitution expressly gives the United States Congress the power to establish a uniform rule of naturalization." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law
However king Obama is not bothered by such issues as the constitution as in the case of immigration or religious rights being a couple of examples.

OK then - I live in Rockdale the couple that lives in the apartment above me arrived here undocmented. They have 2 kids and a third on the way. He is a cook - makes cash. Her and the kids receive all their medical care free, $800 on their link card a month, utiliies are paid for and they get a rent subsidized. He makes 600 a week cash reports that he makes $250 just brings in a white piece of paper signed stating this. Once a year they get a $2,000 bonus she was explaining what this was for but I didnt understand it. All school fees are waved do to low income. When they file their tax return they don't get EIC but do get the child tax credit of 1000 each. They drive around in a big SUV and wear Nike- Aeropostle etc....

Since cutting pensions would be a litigation problem why not tax them like many other states do or did they include some lingo in the state constitution that exempts them from ever paying taxes on pension income.

Dan,

Taxing pension would be wrong. I think I am one of the biggest critics against government pensions. We must take into account all of the seniors that have retired that DO NOT have these plush gold laden type of pensions.

Let these current pensions run their course. Our demand to our legislators should be a focus on how future pensions are funded, what particulars make a persons eligible, and a limit on the amount of separate pensions to a single person.

Correcting government pension is a matter of sense over greed. Greed is the only reason we are in this financial crisis.

Government pensions are the last slap in the face of the American citizen as these failed politician leave their respect offices.

Arthur W. Wiggins Jr.,
Well said. Like you I do feel pensions should not be taxed and I think the same thing should be done for social security. Any taxes on these retires would be for added income beyond a certain threshold as social security is not a livable income unlike the greedy jackpot Edgar is receiving. Again I would not tax him, but the double dipping would be stopped as the University position comes under the state also so he can have one and assuming he takes the 177,000 reported by another it should be reduced further to a more reasonable amount.

Sure Edgar does not mind suggesting raising taxes since it benefits others who also abuse the pension system. He may have been a good governor but the pension problem goes way back and only comes to the forefront now as the state is bankrupt.

Art, you could tax the pensions by means testing. Any defined plan pension over $80,000 per year, including paid retiree health care benefits, could be taxed at regular rates. That would ensure that low and moderate income retirees wouldn't be hurt. It would also exclude virtually everbody on Social Security since benefits max out at about $27K. The open question is whether this tax could be made to apply to anyone receiving a pension from the five Illinois public funds regardless of state of domicile.

I am an avid believer of equal protection under the law. Our government has legislated taxes in accordance to the political climate. We try to establish these different tax rate to plug budgetary holes, this method is a contradiction to our Constitution.

We have people that believe taxing the rich is the answer. This is only a ploy to collect votes, nothing more.

There are 50,000 people in the U.S. that are considered millionaires, how mathematically is it possible to to collect enough taxes from them to fund anything for our 350,000 million citizens?

This applies to pension as well, of which only a much smaller percentage of them are above $80,000. I feel we will spend more money in administration of this type of taxing than we will collect in usable taxable dollars.

Our country is in this financial crisis because of greed, and inappropriate spending. The debate about taxing over looks what we should be focused on in the first place. If it was possible to correct the true issue (spending), a decrease in taxing would be demanded.

Lets not punish the rich for being rich, that is not the answer. That is more of a jealous behavior, and never a solution.

Bob I agree with the concept of means testing for taxation on all retirement income regardless of source or the taxing body.

Arthur your 50,000 USA millionaire number is way way wrong. From the WSJ Blog

......there are now 8.6 million households in the U.S. with a total net worth (minus principal residence) of $1 million or more. There are now 1,078,000 households worth $5 million or more and about 107,000 people worth $25 million or more.

Or did you mean $1M per year? Wrong again. IRS tax returns with income over $1M were 268,000 in 2010, down from 392,000 in 2007. Just the facts Mam.

Tim
Thanks for correcting me. I shamefully am reluctant to disclose where I got my figure.

However, you $1mill or more per year still re-enforces my point. 260K will not put a dent in the needs or 350mil.

Arthur W. Wiggins Jr.,

Some of your data is wrong as there are many more than 50,000 millionaires. One estimate places it at 5.1 million. http://business.time.com/2012/06/05/number-of-millionaires-in-u-s-decreases-but-spikes-worldwide/
Additionally I think you incorrectly referenced "our 350,000 million citizens?" as the number is closer to 314 million rather than the 350,000,000,000 you suggested. Taxing the rich will not cure the problem but taxing them more is not going to hurt them either.

Jim R.

I acknowledge my error in the population of millionaires. I am aware of the census enumerating our population to 314mil. I will defend the 350mil that I stated because of the highly contested accuracy of the census methods to count not only illegals but also those that do not wish to be counted.

I apologize for the error about the annual income of those making 1mil or more per year.

To tax someone because " it wont hurt" is just as bad as the politicians that legislate for their own financial interest.

We can quote and argue stat for an eternity.

What (is suppose to) makes our country better than others is our Constitution, We are to be equally protected under the law. If we follow those guidelines, I feel we would not be in these debates.

Emily the lotto revenue goes to our schools, hahahahahahahhahaha!!!!!!!!!!

Here in Oswego we're looking at another 4.89% increase in what we pay to our school system. This entire state is a joke! We're headed for bankruptcy and it will happen. they can cut the pensions all they want, they still spend like a bunch of drunken sailors and that's what will throw us overboard!

Illinois does not have the highest gasoline tax in the country, we ranked 7th nationally as of 1 Oct 2012. Sorry about the fact thing Emily. Facts are okay in a blog aren't they? Or should I just give an emotional shot from the hip?

Tim, a half truth is the same as a lie. Why don't you tell Emily where we rank in Cook county when all state and local sales, fuel, and other surtaxes are included? Did you include our sales tax on gasoline, which is usually exempted in other states, in that comparison? I think not.

Bob I don't live in and rarely have bought gas in Cook County and am ignorant of any municipal tax burden allocated by the county. Illinois' rank of 7th is from the American Petroleum Institute and includes all state and federal excise and sales taxes. No half truth here. BTW Indiana now ranks higher than Illinois in gas taxes.

Tim, once again you're trying to mislead readers. Illinois is fifth highest in state taxes on gas alone. You're quoting the ranking of DIESEL taxes which are largely paid by the trucking industry, not personal consumers.

Also, while Indiana is higher than Illinois in Diesel taxes, it's 2 spots LOWER than Illinois in auto gas taxes. Why would you mislead like this?

Here's the link for those who really want the facts http://www.api.org/oil-and-natural-gas-overview/industry-economics/~/media/Files/Statistics/gasoline-diesel-summary.ashx.

BTW, the average state, local and county gas taxes area not included in the API rankings. That's what puts Illinois near the top of the heap.

The sunbelt states are generally far lower in their gas taxes than Illinois, even when we consider only state rates.

The simple fact is that we area NOT a low tax state compared to our national competitors. Effective income tax rates in Arizona are about 35% less than here, and their prospects for growth are tremendous for those leaving tax and business hellholes like Illinois and California.

Bob you're correct I misquoted/transposed the diesel (6th) and gasoline rankings (5th). However, I believe that API has captured the sales tax in its "other tax" category. Sorry I made such a egregious and misleading comment. However, my point stands - Illinois does not have the highest motor fuel taxes in the country. Should they be lower? Sure. Is there a reason that Indiana and Illinois have relatively high motor fuel taxes. Yes because we are both crossroads states with significant highway use by thru-traffic. BTW I have a diesel VW and am averaging about 45mpg highway. The great mileage lowers my fuel taxes by about 50%. Try it.

I, for one, would LOVE to work in a position for what? 4 or 8 years and collect a HUMUNGOUS pension for the REST OF MY LIFE! Most people have to work 25, 30 PLUS years in order to collect a minute pittance that doesn't even cover their monthly bills. No early retirement for most, that's for sure!

The state didn't elect JJ Jr, his local constituents did. Is he corrupt? I'll wait for the fat lady to sing before I make that pronouncement. Besides I thought that this discussion was about state government.

JJJ is and was no better than Todd Stroger! Talk about spending OUR MONEY on HIS OWN FAMILY MEMBERS!!! Justifiable my ass!

Hey Mom - I believe the allegations against JJ Jr are for misuse of campaign funds, so unless you contributed to his campaign it was not your money - well allegedly anyway. God knows anything could happen in the sausage capital of the world. You have a donkey? How cool. I'm just hoping that my 'burb gives the okay for chickens.

An additional problem of Illinois is the number of different governments we have. We have so many that overlap in addition to our school districts being too small. Dropping some of the government structures would provide major savings and a more efficient government.

Good comment Jim R. It's often difficult to see what value is added by overlapping municipal governments. I believe that there are potential cost savings to be had by eliminating redundant functions. The only potential downside is a slight loss in local autonomy.

Andrea good for you!! If you don't mind could you give a little insight to where you went. Not asking for your address I'm just at my wits end here and need to do something asap. I'm working 3 jobs and barely making it. I've lived here all my life and after my job was outsourced I had to find those 3 jobs just make half of what I did with the one. I'm beyond the point of tired, just down right exhausted. There's got to be something better and if it means walking away from my home literally I'm at the point I'm going to do it.
John Amen!! We need to quit being big brother already! Keep our jobs here, rely on each other and for the love of God take care of our own. Millions of dollars we can send overseas and not one blink. People in other countries can take care of themselves, it's their country it's their business, US stay out already!!

There's going to be a revolt, you watch! People are at the breaking point I see it everyday!

Eh Bob watcha smokin? Only 7% of Americans work in state, local, and federal government. Government employment has actually been going down the last few years and now stands at the lowest level since 1987. The most recent era of growth in government employment was the 1960s and 70s where total government employment rose from around 4% to 7% of the population. True that the private sector, excluding charities and NGOs, operate on a profit motive. Government exists to provide services to the people, for the national defense, and to control the forces of unregulated capitalism. Growth in government employment is a non-issue because it does not exist. What is a problem is the willingness of the people to pay for government - including the costs associated with past promises for things like pensions for government employees. BTW I worked as a research scientist for the federal government for 15 years. Believe me the pay (28% less than private sector comparable), benefits (shared health care costs), retirement (my contributions to a 403b with minimal matching and a $2,000 pension), and performance bonuses (little to none), really were not that great. After I left government service I doubled my pay in three years.

Why do people continue to vote for these same politicians? Because they are either looking for a hand out or have their hand in someone's pocket. And they are the majority, obviously.

Unfortunately about all our idiot government did was to call for a 2/3 vote on future increases which does not touch the abuse in place. We need to dump Madigan and Quinn from office along with the other clowns that follow them. Since they helped to bankrupt the state they should also be denied pensions as they did not do their jobs.

Emily no value judgement imposed - just correcting the record dear.

Get serious,
http://www.taxpayersunitedofamerica.org/commentary/itef/five-million-dollar-pensions-enjoyed-by-illinois-state-cops-part-2
We cannot afford these types of pensions though I respect the work of those who risk their life, we have to put a stop to gravy trains.

Our military personal are the true heroes. They're dragged over to some country we can't keep our business out of and put in harms way each second of each day they're there. These brave men and women are the ones who deserve much more than they receive. They're always in my thoughts and prayers may they all come home soon and safely.
A special not forgotten Thank You to all that have served this country!

The Police are Americas military personal that protect us 24/7. Love to see others that complain about them do their job. Too many are babies to do Police work.

Try looking up the actual Village of Orland Park disclosures for public employees before making yourself look uninformed: http://www.orland-park.il.us/DocumentView.aspx?DID=4062
ALL of the salaries (even if you exclude pensions and other benefits) are over-inflated! Patrol cops making more than $100k/year?? Give me a break!

"•Current starting salary of $43,104, increased to $60,918 after 12 months, and increased to $64,374 after 18 months"
http://www.chicagopolice.org/answerthecall/benefits.html

Jim R your point is?

My brother is a cop and dispatcher in Indiana as well as a dog-handler and former sharpshooter; I also have two close friends who are Chicago cops. They make no where NEAR what OP pays its cops, so give it a rest. OP overpays it employees. Period!

And supplement that average salary with their vacation time and additional income. Puts it >$90K/year. For doing what? Orland has SUCH a high crime rate with violent crime waves so often, right? HA! A joke. For handing out parking tickets to meet monthly quotas and catching a couple DUIs a month. OP is a bedroom community and NOT at all the same as Chicago.

B.S. Orland is over paid. They deserve the pay for their work, just like any other Police and Firemen do. As far as Chicago my friend is a Lt. there making 115,000 a year and a topped out Patrolmam in Chicago makes 92,000 a year. Also Laura do you think 82,000 a year is over paid. Give me a break. Period!

Laura stop complaining. Doesn't matter where a Police Officer works. It's still a dangerous job. And you make it sound like making DUI arrest are doing nothing. Plus don't sound stupid, there is no such thing as a quota and it's against the law to have them. You are so misinformed. If you don't like it , too bad.

Sounds like maybe you are, buying into the mythology, Disciple. Quotas exist.... they just aren't codified. Ask any friend you might have who works for a police force. Municipalities raise revenues via tickets... whether you like it or not, cops give more tickets toward month's end than any other time during the month. Why IS that? Complaining? Nah.... just think it's ridiculous to pay cops more in OP for our bedroom community antics than they do in areas where crime is an everyday reality. We've had I believe two (please correct me if I've underestimated!) murders here in the last couple years. They are overpaid suburban cops who do relatively little by comparison to their cohorts in Chicago or other urban areas.

Laura you are completely wrong on all aspects. Like I said Police work is dangerous regardless where they work and they deserve their salaries that are over 75,000 a year. Plus there is no influx in citations issued regardless if it's the end of the month. As far as for citations a Police Officer can not be told by his Dept. to write a certain amount of citations. It's the Officers choice to write or not to write a citation and no one else's .

Disciple, unofficial "policies" differ from state to state. city to city, town to town and village to village. Unless you work for OP, you can not say someone is wrong about the "cites" policies and whether the POs working various areas might be subtly pressured by supervisors to hit a number. Sounds as though you probably work for, oh say, Bollingbrook's, PD! LOL!

Oh, and that's right, the POs can write as many tickets as they want.... Maybe they'll get a toaster! LMAO. Nitey nite...

Perhaps Ben or one the other employees from The Patch can weigh in on the quota issue. People always think of it as a monthly system, but I wonder if it's possible for it to be yearly. Perhaps there is a system requiring officers to do a certain of amount of things in a 12 month period....

Officers can not and I say can not be ordered or threatened by their Dept. to write a set amount or any amount of citations. Setting a quota on an Officer is illegal.

I found this on Orland Park's website under all of the collective bargaining agreements. Not sure if it fits the definition most people would use for a quota but it's pretty close:
"Section 13.4. Performance Evaluation. The Village, in consultation with the Chapter, shall establish minimum acceptable work performance standards. An employee’s failure to meet said minimum standards may result in disciplinary action being taken by the Village and, in addition, the Village may withhold scheduled step increases, as defined in Section 13.3. Said minimum acceptable work performance standards may be changed by mutual consent of the Village and the Chapter. Effective upon ratification all officers assigned to the patrol unit are required to produce 350 contacts per year or an average of 29 contacts per month. A contact is defined as either an arrest or any ticket written. A warning ticket(s) will only count a as .5 contact per incident, per person."

Seems pretty clear to me that they are required to write a certain amount of tickets or get a certain number of arrests...
How did this conversation end up talking about quotas anyway???

Arthur that pretty much sums that one up. Laura and my neighbor where dead on with this one. Wanted to be a cop but I'm legally deaf in one ear and I was told don't bother. Sure would have been nice to have job security, sucks having your job outsourced.

Is Drew Peterson back or did Ebenezer come to town?

Disciple, if you're trying to justify police work as being exceptionally "hazardous" for physical work, you're full of it. Injuries and deaths for police aren't even among the top 10. Check out this link if you doubt that http://www.safetyservicescompany.com/blog/10-most-dangerous-jobs-of-2010

If job hazard is the basis for them being paid, then they should be making FAR less than fisherman, roofers, iron workers (and just about every other construction job), truckers, refuse removal workers (garbage men) and even real estate management personnel.

The fact is that police departments are overflowing with people wanting to get into police jobs, and only the politically connected few actually are hired either in the burbs or city. Taxpayers have paid out millions in judgements against police departments whose patronage cheats minorities, and would be bankrupt if it was against the law to refuse hiring a more qualified applicant than the cronies they actually hire.

If you actually believe an Orland cop should be paid the same, or more, than a cop working Englewood or Woodlawn, you have a truly distorted sense of fairness and job challenges!

Bob other than big City Police Departments that paid out so called millions to cheated minorities , show me a list of suburban or other Departments that did pay out as well. People that don't get a job as a Police Officer always complain of politics and they can't face the truth they weren't qualified . There's is some politics in Police work, just like all other jobs out there. Any Police Officer that puts on the badge to protect us 24/7 regardless where they work deserve the pay they get.

Bob look at these facts for the last ten years and now tell me Police work isn't more dangerous than a commercial fisherman or logger or many other jobs.

A total of 1,799 law enforcement officers died in the line of duty during the past 10 years, an average of one death every 56 hours or 156 per year. There were 163 law enforcement officers killed in 2011. 

File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
occupation in the United States based on fatality rates published by the Bureau of Labor. Statistics ... the 696 logging deathsinvestigated by OSHA over the past 10 years(FY 1988 - ...

The report looks at fatal commercial fishing accidents off the United States East Coast between 2000 and 2009. In that decade:
165 commercial fishermen died.

Bob,
I'm sure your argument would be very compelling for the widows and children of police officers murdered every year. There are other hazardous occupations. Few where people are trying to kill you simply because you wear the uniform.

Laura,
You say they have quotas, but they're not codified. What exactly are these non-codified quotas? Do you expect that police will not be evaluated in any way on productivity? That is not the same as a quota.

Bob real estate management? Come on get real! I can't stop laughing.

Ernie,
You say a productivity requirement isn't the same as a quota. Without getting into a debate about the definition of the word I have to respectfully disagree with you. I think most people would say that a quota, in terms of police officers, is a requirement, either official or unofficial, to write a certain amount of tickets in a certain amount of time. Please see my post a few comments above this one to see how the Orland Park police handle their productivity requirement. Wouldn't you agree that those officers are required to write a certain amount of tickets and get a certain number of arrests within a certain period of time, in their case a year? That sounds to me like at least a form of a quota.

Arthur,
How can a police officer's productivity be measured if citations are not included in any way? A quota is a number. A quota is not using tickets as a measure (among others) of productivity in order to evaluate performance.

Ernie, try telling widows and orphans that their deceased parent or spouse's life was somehow worth less because they weren't wearing a badge.

It should also be noted that the majority of deaths and injuries for police and firemen AREN'T from someone trying to kill them, it's from traffic accidents when they're in hot pursuit.

FYI, security guards have higher injury and fatality rates than police, and there's ARE from people trying to hurt them.

Based on this fact, should police be paid less than security guards? If not, why not?

If it's training and skill, there are MANY professions that pay less than police that require more education and metal acuity.

Is it physical strain? In that case, virtually every construction and sanitation job should pay more than policework.

This is not to diminish the service of the people in blue. It's just that there is a relative value to the job's compensation, and sayng the sky's the limit is absurd!

Bob,
If you look back you will see that I made no value judgement. I simply argue with the ridiculous notion that being a cop is not dangerous. Bob, there is a reason that cops wear BULLETPROOF VESTS. It's not because they are so attractive.

If you think its so safe, I invite you to go for a ride-along on night shift in a high crime area. Better yet, put in your application if its such a cushy job.

Ernie,
Exactly. A quota is a number. And in this context a number that has to be achieved in a given amount of time. So in the case of the Orland Park Police Department, can a person not say that their "quota" is 350 in 12 months?

I agree with you when it comes to evaluating performance. And I think we are having a semantic debate here more than anything. As I understand it the point of not having a quota is so that an officer won't feel compelled to write tickets that he otherwise wouldn't just to meet some magic number. So can you honestly tell me that if an officer who is working his last day of the year and is one ticket short isn't going to look extra hard for any violation he can find?

Bob learn some facts. See below link. Shootings of Police Officers is still the major cause of their deaths. As for Police Officers a vast majority of Departments now require College degrees. Do you realize what kind of training and classes an Officer take throughout their career and what a magnitude of laws and and other topics they have to learn along with split second decessions. It's a very challenging and very demanding job on a daily basis. Police Officers are even considered a professional in their job.

http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/causes.html

Bob over a ten year span 2002-2011 570 Police Officers were shot and killed and 470 were killed in car crashes. Thus the number one cause of Officer deaths are from being shot. Plus security guards are no where even near that number, let alone more dangerous than Police work. What a joke.

Bob one other thing. If Police Offiicers weren't paid their due share, what would we do if all the Police Officers quit for being paid low wages. Towns/Cities would close up for having no Police force to protect us. Let it be known its not a law to have a Police force and they aren't required to protect us if they choose not to.

Vera they will in-source the police and fire departments. They will pay these people 99 cents an hour, give them room and board and keep them here for a couple for a couple of years before the new recruits come in. Getting a pension from this state is like playing Russian Roulette with your future.

Walt in source from where? What if all Police Dept's all closed up across the U.S.

Vera they'll in-source from other countries and these people will come in on work Visa's. I think American's should be the first one's hired but this game is already being played out. My wife and I saw this during her cancer treatments, made me sick!

Brought in from other Countries, by whose authority? What do about the language barrier? Have an interpreter following the foreigner around on calls? It wouldn't work and it would never be done. If a City or Town opts out not to have a Police force, the federal government can't make them have one. So what made you sick?

Seems his comments are given a different focus.

Disciple (Vera, Tom, etc., etc.), the link you provided shows that 36.6% of officer fatalities cited during 2002-11 were linked to shootings; the balance (63.4%) of officers died of other causes. The website fails to delineate whether these were on- or off-duty fatalilties. Ergo, one can't tease apart whether these deaths might have occurred regardless of the occupation. There are courses called "statistics" that can help you understand this, if you still aren't certain.

The Police deaths are all duty related. Regardless of the percentage of Officers shot and killed people aren't supposed to shoot the Police. I dont see firemen or other City employees going to a call or while performing their job and get shot at a year pace like Police Officers do.

laura, I taught statistics in college for awhile when I was teacing sociology. The better comparison as you were leading is to use statistics. Just using raw numbers is not necessarily wise, rates are much better since you deal with a comparable base. By using rates we have a better comparison among occupations with varying number of employees. The following link gives mortality rates from a number of occupations.

http://bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfoi_rates_2009hb.pdf
But even this data ignores the obvious which is that pensions have gotten out of hand and are much too high. An argument by someone that they deserve all they get should be followed by that person's agreement to pay the bill as the rest of us cannot afford it. Going back to Edgars comment, increase his tax but not ours but better lessen his pension to one and reduce the size of that. Personally I find his comment hypocritical as he is part of the problem and his solution is absolute nonsense. Former neighbors of mine left the state for another because of the costs here.

Edgar is one of the biggest thieves ever in state government---and Dillard is just as bad--don't be fooled by his meida love affair. Remember the media elected tha tscum Obama too.

I agree with you 100%. I would love to see how all of us taxpaying property owners could strike paying our property taxes. I think that is the best idea ever (and I have heard it before).

Teachers strike, Hostess strike, construction workers strike, and why cant we strike? LOL

First, States can not declare bankruptcy.

Second, why would you cut off your nose, to spite your face? If people did what you suggested, the ratings on your taxing bodies bonds would be massively downgraded, causing the interest rate for bonds to go through the roof! That would lead to a much, much worse situation than whatever you think you have now.

It's amusing watching all these 'solutions'. What ever happened to personal responsibility? If you can not afford your house(taxes included), how is that anyone else's fault but your own? Did someone force you to buy as large a house as you did?

My taxes could go up 100%, and it STILL would not cause me any personal fiscal problems. Then again, I actually understand what I am doing with my money/assets.

You want a smaller tax bill?
MOVE TO A SMALLER HOUSE!

Nope, a grand total of zero states can declare bankruptcy;
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/21/business/economy/21bankruptcy.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
"Unlike cities, the states are barred from seeking protection in federal bankruptcy court. Any effort to change that status would have to clear high constitutional hurdles because the states are considered sovereign. "

You are responsible for YOUR actions.
You are responsible for choosing to live in an unsustainable exurb, that will require higher and higher costs just to keep afloat.
You are responsible for every single one of your choices.

Your choices come with costs. I'm sorry you don't like those costs, but they are a DIRECT result of your choices. Otherwise, I would be facing the same problems as you, but since I made vastly different choices from you I am not.

Are you saying my current circumstances are not of my own doing?
Was it not my own doing to have 70% of the value of the house I bought in savings?
Was it not my doing that I chose to keep my living expenses below 50% of my income?

Of course, they ARE a result of my choices, but it lets your ego off the hook to think all these things are out of your control.

I do find it amusing, that while I sit here taking responsibility for all my own choices, you are the ones calling people immature, and saying how none of this is your fault.

States cannot file BK. If they could, surely we would have seen many do so already. States are not granted the same option as municipalities are when it comes to Chapter 9 BK filing.

Yes, everyone has a sad story.

I had well over $80K in medical bills in a single year to pay off too, but guess what...
I chose to live so far below my income, that unexpected costs have no way of throwing me off balance.
In contrast, you chose to live as close to your income as possible(and if you were like most Americans, over your income). That puts you in a very precarious fiscal situation. A choice that you learned the hard way that life has its ways of throwing you off of. The solution is to learn form your mistakes, not punish those who made a different choice.

Nice to know you will walk away when things get tough. All you have done is prove what the exact dollar value on your ethics are. And you wonder why you find yourself in the position you do?

Why would I want to take your advice, when your choices led you to the situation I have purposely avoided by my own choices?

WOW, Big Man Tim! Nice to see you can still carry on a conversation in an adult manner.

I had a home that was paid for, I had most college tuition in the bank for my girls and due to one cancer ( surgery for a daughter) and outsourcing of my job it was gone. Loosing ones insurance during a crisis is never expected. We drained every bit of savings, took a small loan out on the home and stayed off of the system which we could have done but I have more respect for myself than that.

Not asking for anyone's pity. What happened to me could happen to anyone, even you and don't think it can't! Just an FYI, $80,000.00 is chump change, try 1.2 MILLION where would you stand on that one!!!!!!!! They wrote off half, I still have a ways to go!!!!

For anyone to say that cuts can't be made are part of the problem. Whether it's buying supplies from a different supplier to charging more for programs, cuts can be made it happens everyday. Ask any business owner about that! I love how the ones who don't live in our town have all the answers. Maybe we should have made the frugal choices of some and moved to Will or Grundy county. My bad mistake for staying in the town I was born in and 3 generations before me. Maybe everyone else should have stayed away.

Walt, I never said cuts can't be made. In fact, quite the opposite, but let me try to be clear if you haven't heard it yet.

Cuts can be made, but they will never lead to a sound solution if the same problems being harped on that 'created' this, are continued in attempting to solve it. That being, rushing into something without first understanding what it is you are doing. Calling for a flat 20% cut EVERYWHERE, is not just uninformed, it is dangerous. Maybe you do not understand how financing works at a municipal level, but when a municipality wants to raise funds, it does not just get the cash straight from that act alone. Instead, bonds are issued at a certain percentage rate(like any loan), and the tax revenue goes to paying off those bonds over time. The ability of that entity to pay off its loans is what will determine the rate of interest that must be paid to get that certain amount of money from the sale of the bonds. This ability, is judged by third party rating agencies, and every governing body in Kendall that issues bonds has one of these ratings. Now, lets say you are a rating agency, and you see such irresponsible 'demands' coming from the population that 20% cuts must be made everywhere. This will be a piece of information that is then going to be a negative factor the next time ANY governing body in the city wants to issue bonds, causing a HIGHER interest rate to be paid for the same amount of money.

The cuts are not the problem. The problem comes in making this broad 'cut 20% from everything', without any actual plan or thought. When anything more than a surface analysis is done on this, It becomes obvious that it is actually causing more damage that it prevents.

If anyone could present an actual plan, based on the unique circumstances of EACH body, they could get my support. That plan has never been put forth, just more of the 'cut 20%' ramblings. This is not a 'negotiating tactic' or any other nonsense, this is the fiscal health of your town, and a surprisingly large amount of people have willingly gotten on board to actively damage their communities. On the surface, it makes perfect sense - who wouldn't want to pay less money? That sounds great, when asked as an independent question. And that was the dangerous part of this... those consequences were never listed, or brought up, by this 'protest' before election day. There was no 'counter' group out there that was sounding the warnings of how poor of an idea this actually was, so none of the negative information about this choice ever reached a voter.

Choices have consequences, so you(the royal you) better make sure you FULLY understand what you are doing. Not knowing how the finance world functions is not going to stop it from functioning that way, no matter how unfair you may think it is.

Walt, IGNORE Tim.... he clearly doesn't have school-aged children and didn't lose a spouse. He assumes ("assume makes an as* out of U and ME") he knows your situation and your stressors. He doesn't. Nor does he allude to care-taking for anyone but himself. We know young children change that me-first ballgame. Death of a spouse also changes that ballgame. Just IGNORE his ignorance. :-)

Laura,
I am with you as I find Tim's comments offensive. My wife and I were given nothing but we have been frugal and have an amount of savings in our 401k. I am retired but my wife is still working, and even with what we have saved with our house also paid I would not make comments like Tim's. No we do not have control of everything we would like. I take no responsibility for idiot Quinn but I blame others who voted for him. Unless you are a billionaire, do not assume your funds might run dry because of illness or something else unforseen. I am not happy with all of those who declared bankruptcy when they can still afford it but they do not want to accept their loss. Guess many would like to have gotten their 401k losses back when the stocks and housing hit the skids but that is not the way it works.

I remember a plasterer in his 70's who did some work for us quite some time ago. He had retired, but his wife's bout with cancer wiped away all of their savings. So my attitude is not to assume all because a person is facing difficult times it is not always their fault or a lack of planning.

Somehow this went from a discussion about taxes, to a pissing contest of who had the roughest life.

If you are complaining about your taxes, why are you bringing up those other issues? Either you could afford your house, or you couldn't. One off unexpected expenses would have happened NO MATTER WHAT. You can't suddenly point to your taxes as being the problem, when there are other expenses multiple orders of magnitude larger than that, that are what are actually the main contribution to your problems.

Taxes are what you chose to focus on, but they are not the problem. Your income is. Guess what - there a MILLIONS of people poorer than you that would LOVE to have your problems. By your logic, we should cut all the services and tax breaks you currently have, to make it 'fair' to those who have less than you. For example; Renters do not get the mortgage interest deduction on their taxes - are you supporting eliminating that to make it 'fair'? Of course not - because that is the benefit that YOU want.

The concept you are advocating is called a 'race to the bottom', and if you pulled yourself out of your limited perspective, you would understand the problems with it.

I'm sorry your life has been rough, but why do you think that others that have absolutely nothing to do with your circumstances, need to be punished for it?

Guess no one told Greece! LMAO! Internationally, it's called "default!"

Sovereign you say. Then that would mean that we could elect NOT to follow any Federal edict/law...like Obamacare if the people of the state so voted??? As for filing bankruptcy, I think most folks simply mean run out of money and have no way to borrow more...thus, they are dependant on tax payers paying into a balanced budget situation reflecting a lot of cuts!

In Edgar's years, we had a "temporary" income tax increase from 2% to 3%. He made the 50% tax increase permanent.

Originally, the increase was to clean up some short term fiscal issues and give the state some breathing room to get it's spending priorities in order, but once the new money was there all the parasites were lined up to grab it, from road contractors to teachers unions and wasteful Universities, and the spending reform never happened.

Sound familiar? Wash, rinse, repeat.

Quin and some other idiots want to give licenses to illegals which seems to reward people breaking immigration laws no matter what king obama says, but our debt is much more than the issue you suggest which is only a small part of the total.
"Illinois has an unfunded pension liability of at least $83 billion, according to state figures. It had 45 percent of what it needed to pay future retiree obligations as of 2010, the lowest among U.S. states, data compiled by Bloomberg show. "
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-29/illinois-debt-cut-by-s-p-after-lack-of-action-on-pension-funding.html
Some of the same idiots are not resolving the pension problem. Our government in Illinois drove us into debt and are not fixing it, possibly to protect their own pensions. This is also why I said sometime ago edgar is a hypocrite suggesting tax increases while receiving 2 huge pensions. All in our Congress should have all of their pensions rescinded until they resolve this problem without raising taxes.

Jim R it would be a big start to deport the illegal's from Illinois.

Rather than deport, tax! There must be a way to tax them. The do a lot of good work and we need them but they should be taxed if they receive ANY benefits. The drivers license ploy makes no sense, With a government issued ID (with picture) all they need is a SSA (Real or fake) so the License should be a technique to insure they pay their fair share!

I'm sure you meant "guy"?